Electric Cars

glenwilson

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E-cars are fine and I have no issues with them apart from how they look. Designs seem to want them look like petrol cars which had evolved because of the engine they were using. The Model 3, to me looks like a Mondeo or Focus clone externally.

It seems like most manufacturers are moving towards an electric only product range. The trouble I see iwth this is that they will be alienating a lot of their customers. Say you buy a Tesla Model 3 for about £32k, you the either have to lease the batteries or look to buy replacements at some point. Replacement batteries for the original Tesla roadster is $30k.

For me, currently, a car is almost essential. Because my knees are fecked using public transport is an issue. Not because I don’t like using but but because of the difficulty. Our nearest bus stop is about 500m away. For me that is 500m of pain (unless I get drugged up beforehand :) ) and then standing waiting a for the bus and so on. Not impossible but certainly not pleasant.

We can afford to buy a petrol car and run it because the initial outlay and running costs are within our budget. There is no way that we could afford to get a new electric car or even a pre-owned and have the cost of battery replacement in the future. I know running costs are much lower but affordability is a mixture of factors. If electric only is the only choice in the future then many people will be isolated because of the initial outlay for the vehicle.

At this time the longer term running costs of electric vehicles isn’t really known. A mechanically driven vehicle is easy to predict service intervals and part replacement because of decades of experience. There is little experience with high volume complex electric vehicle production and use yet. How long will the motors last and so on. Our first washing machine lasted 25 years, the second one lasted 6 before it wasn’t cost effective to repair. Design are chaging to make manufacturing cheaper but that also has an effect on the life of the item. I don’t think they are designing in obsolescence but things don’t last as long.

Another thought is houses, towns and cities haven’t been designed with the infrastructure to cope with the increased demand for electricity. Yes, most cars would charge overnight when there is less overall demand. But that is going to change if relatively quick there is a need for power to charge cars. I am disappointed that new houses here don’t have or are required to have solar panels. Even if there was a modest amount then that would help environmentally.


I had originally put a couple of comments in the chat but it would have become a Heikki epic :D so moved it here. I think Tesla cars are desirable but are still out of many people’s budget and are a rare sight on the roads. I would have thought that small vehicles like the Renault Twizzy would become more popular for short commutes and local use but again battery costs and leasing adds to the initial low purchase price.

I think we have a long way to go yet before they are affordable mainstream vehicles.
 

lakaelo

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Electric car -> Big NO from me ^^
I'll stick with usual diesel and petrol cars for the rest of my life :D

lol you are so young, you will go through a time with electric cars only. not at least the petrol will be unavailable in some years.

however, atm i think we are just starting this periode of car evolution now and sure atm it is not really affordable for private customer. ok, i heard about that you get a lot of tax or government grants in some scandinavian countries. no clue if this is going so far that the costs are more comparable to a petrol car.

here in germany i think it is only interesting as a business car ( leasing car ) atm because the monthly rates are nearly equal to a pertol usiing car and before the batteries are gone or needed to replaced, your leasing contract ended and you are going with a new car.

but this will help to make the accutechnology better and even cheaper and so i think in some years you can say its easy and cheap to replace the batterypack even if you use a electric car for a lot of years or as a second or more owner.
 
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SCAR-H

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I have my doubts about these electric cars:

Are they reliable enough in places where you have cold weather half of the year like Finland? Millions of people live here outside of big cities and have every year problems when storm or heavy snow makes trees collapse on power lines and causes blackouts. For example my parents. How these people can go to work and grocery store etc survive when there is no way reload battery of that electric car? And think for example me. I live in suburb of medium size city, couple kilometres away from almost everything i need. Its hypocrisy you create shitload of pollution to produce that fancy electric car if compared to pollution what it causes if i use regular fuel car to go grocery store 2km away. And that "protecting of enviroment" goes even worse if cost of new battery is almost equal than buying whole new car. Its not brainer what most people will do if they get new one with full guarantee with almost same money when battery dies.

At least at this moment electric cars are just toys of people who have too much money and not very much practical thinking. We have long distances here and very poor public transport, people needs cars for going to work etc every day. Yes car makers should make research for future but they should allow using of fuel cars at least until electric cars are reliable and reasonable enough.
 
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lakaelo

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I have my doubts about these electric cars:

Are they reliable enough in places where you have cold weather half of the year like Finland? Millions of people live here outside of big cities and have every year problems when storm or heavy snow makes trees collapse on power lines and causes blackouts. For example my parents. How these people can go to work and grocery store etc survive when there is no way reload battery of that electric car? And think for example me. I live in suburb of medium size city, couple kilometres away from almost everything i need. Its hypocrisy you create shitload of pollution to produce that fancy electric car if compared to pollution what it causes if i use regular fuel car to go grocery store 2km away. And that "protecting of enviroment" goes even worse if cost of new battery is almost equal than buying whole new car. Its not brainer what most people will do if they get new one with full guarantee with almost same money when battery dies.

At least at this moment electric cars are just toys of people who have too much money and not very much practical thinking. We have long distances here and very poor public transport, people needs cars for going to work etc every day. Yes car makers should make research for future but they should allow using of fuel cars at least until electric cars are reliable and reasonable enough.

totally true atm but there is just one simple answer...fossil fuels are not endless and in a round 50 years ( more or less ) we all will not having pertol for our cars anymore.

instead of that we need to go new ways. looks how we starting now. little solar power plants in towns or on your own house, wind mills for producing elecetrical power. you have to look at the whole thing. your issues there at the northpole lol are the best example. without any electrical power coming from some big powerplants over long distance wires you are fucked up. but if you had your own solar panels on the roof for producing power in a combination with some little wind will, also for producing power, connected with a proper batterie pack, you are fine at all. that is the point it has to end at.

thats why we need some screwballs out there who are now starting with this new technologie and in time there will be more and more and with that all this tec stuff will be cheaper so it will be a mass technologie, reliable and cheap.
 

glenwilson

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Obviously we need an alternative to fossil fuels. I just think that going all-in with electric is a bit daft without the infrastructure. Motorway services have maybe 4 charge station (if some dick with a Nova hasn't parked in there) and that is not enough. Is there enough raw materials for the production of the batteries an so on.

Alternatives should also be explored - there are lots of alternatives to fossil fuels. For example: steam, warp cores, nuclear and so on. Why aren't these being explored? :D
 

Redd Tedd

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everyone with a bike seems to think they are saving the planet.
maybe they are onto something...

maybe 15 guys peddling away with a trailer attached, replaces HGV's
rickshaws instead of taxis
kids all take themselves to school on bikes like we used too, no more 4x4's for a single 4yr old
i even saw this... - that's Magaluf sorted :p
and Paris could now guide these through our tricky cargo vessel laden waters... ;)
Construction - sorted :)

Problem fixed chaps...(y)
 

glenwilson

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Did a search on pedal power and apparently “peddle powered” seems to be quite a niche ‘art/educational’ video category. Who knew!

There probably needs to be a missive breakthrough in battery technology but it is possible the oil companies are holding that back to recover their massive oil exploration costs. After all there are still the polar regions to destroy and alaska before completely exhausting supplies.
 

General_Misery

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Tesla has so far been as we all know a rich man's car and model 3 may become, if not "everyone's car", at least affordable to a wider customer group. The technology is still in it's infancy more or less and once China (and perhaps India) revs up their investment in this area there may be a big leap in affordability, options and technology. Even if the comparison is not correct, see what happened to solar panels once China started to invest in that area. From a consumer's viewpoint I would like to see (apart from less expensive cars) cheaper replacement batteries, longer range and more options i.e. manufacturers/models.

As fossil fuels will become redundant for many reasons and the climate change is probably the biggest global threat we need to find new ways of using less energy and generate energy in a sustainable manner be it for heating, travel or production etc. I think there will be an integrated approach in time with home/transport/other energy needs getting customized e.g. solar panel roof tiles, thermal energy, home batteries etc.

I'm very concerned re this, not that I will live to see the full effects but my children and grand-children will no doubt.
 

glenwilson

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I think that is why the Trump (sorry for being a little bit political) regime is a worry. The environmental law and rules rollback will be globally damaging. Ford are stopping or minimising produvt of small cars with only the likes of the Mustang still being produced. There is almost a stigma from owning a small (in relative terms) car compared to some massive SUV or pickup truck. The US doesn’t suffer the high fuel costs we have here in Europe so they don’t seem to see the value of frugal or alternative cars, yet.

I think a deregulation of some of the requirements for small electric vehicles would reduce costs and increase electric vehicle use. Today was the first time I filled up with fuel for six weexs! Many of the journeys have been about 5 mile round trips for shopping or other stuff. Many of those trips could have been done in a small electric vehicle.

Even things like hiring cars can be a pain. If you had a small electric car that got you to the railway or somewhere you could short term rent if you needed something bigger that would help the environment.
 
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General_Misery

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Tesla short review from renting a model X 75 for two days:

+
In general, very nice feeling - even if this had not been the hyped Tesla.
Excellent build quality
Instant and sporty acceleration even for this low tier model
Silent (of course) and no smell :)
Huge iPadesque interface for map, settings etc.
Easy and fast charging w/o cost at supercharger stations
"Smells of Steve Jobs/Apple" in design and functionality
Comfortable and spacious for everybody in the car
Falcon wing design of back doors is soooo cool

-
This model, with a fairly low battery capacity, needs recharging too often IMO, I got about 275 km per charge (and I recharged after ~ 220 km out of fear of running out of e-juice).
Glitchy home charging via regular mains (blew a fuse over and over).
The huge interface takes some time getting used to and some old school knobs would be beneficial.
Falcon wing design of back doors is soooo annoying since you can't use roof bars

Well, that's' about it (y)

Oh, the cost? Roughly £310 for two (weekend) days with free mileage.
 

glenwilson

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That seems a reasonable price for rental when you consider the price of the car. Many sports/supercar hire fees are really stupid and with limited miles too. A weekend hire of a Range Rover sport is about £800 with 600 miles. I know which I would prefer to try!!

Current electric cars for mainstream manufacturers are based on existing models and are an option effectively so the designs are still based on conventional manufacturing and design standards. Though Tesla cars have some unique features they are probably being constrained by safety regulations for conventionally powered vehicles. Until mainstream manufacturers fesign electric only models will designs really change from tne current car form factor.
 

Mr.X

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My next car is definitaly a electric car.
And a Tesla 3 is the first on my list and the price already isn't much higher than for a upper class petrol car.
I have solar panels on my roof, so I produce my own power.
For the costs, it will be like every new technology, in a few years it will be cheaper and advanced. Petrol definitaly isnt the future. I also have a heat pump, so no more fossil fuels for me.
 
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Psycho_Moerchen

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Well, i was testing the last Year a lot of Elektric and Hybrid Cars. The Result are, nearly always the same:

Very High Costs for nearly no KM to drive, if i look to the Tesla X thats nearly similar from Price and Horsepower of my actual SUV. I see a a lot of Time flying away to charge the Model X. I was testing it for One Day, was driving from Stuttgart- at home nearl 70Km with Top Speed on a hot day, the Battery was nearly Halfpower away, i was supercharge on a Tesla Station the Car for 24 Minutes (realy fast for 98% recharge). After that i was driving normal on Countrystreets, no Highway so the result was 1/4 Battery needet ( from 525 km are rest of 312KM) So with my Car and nearly the same Power (a 8 Zyl Turbo Diesel 4.0l Engine) and 100l Fuel at the Tank i Drive with a Average speed of 160 up 190KM/H 895 KM (with Speed 200- 242Km/h only 682 KM), if i Drive with 120-160 i drive over 1.200 KM (with a good mix of Topspeed and normal drive i need 9.6 l / 960 KM). So at the Moment are a elektric Car something for Pensioners with a lot of Time and Money for Coffee.

Currently it is not worthwhile to buy an electric car from my point of view. And at least I think Tesla is totally overrated, the cockpits insist on cheap plastic, but the Displays are definitely great.
 

glenwilson

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Most US sourced cars seem to have cheap and tacky interiors. Even something like the Ford ExplorerKuga have completely different interior feel to them. I guess it is a way to keep costs down. Even Nissans are the same. To be honest I don’t know why there aren’t more reduced cost brands in the EU. Using cheaper plastics and dropping a lot of gadgets that many people never ever use would reduce costs and weight too.

My wife gets fuel anxiety when the car has 1/4 of a tank left. I can imagine what she would be like with an electric car - no heating, no lights, no radio all to save a few mA.

As pensioners on a fixed income we tend to buy things outright so you know exactly what your costs are. We couldn’t afford any of the current electric cars because of the initial cost and then the cost of leasing the battery. Well outside our budget. Insurance/servicing are, within reason, fixed costs and can be budgeted for even as the car gets older and will need to have additional work done. Long term ownership of electric cars is a bit of an unknown as is the resale value of them too.